Earlier in the year I went to the reading of a new play. While I wasn’t exactly bowled over by the play itself, the leading actress, Josephine Liptrott, gave a real, honest, believable performance. I quickly popped backstage to congratulate her; we befriended each other on Facebook, had a couple of long phone calls and then I read an article she’d written, which could have been written by me. I agreed with every single word of it. You can read it here:
Before I share her entertaining, intelligent and thought-provoking answers to my questions, here’s something about her: Josephine Liptrott is an actor and writer. Following several proper jobs (with the BBC, as the customer relations manager of a holiday company and in academia), she trained as an actor. A northerner by birth, she has lived on both sides of the Pennines but moved to West London in 2009 to take up a place at drama school.
In addition to performing in various theatre, screen and audio productions, Josephine writes short stories, features and articles for several publications, online and in print. Dispelling the myth that feminists are all humourless glum-buckets, she has also performed stand-up comedy.
She loves Bruce Springsteen, books, Radio 4, rugby union, travelling, cake and Shakespeare, but hates bad manners, narrow-mindedness and marshmallows. She laughs a lot. Find her on Twitter @JoLiptrott and, whilst she will bang on about politics a fair bit, she might also raise a smile!
Josephine Liptrott
ES: Jo, I can’t thank you enough for agreeing to this interview. I’ve got so many questions for you, so let’s get started! When did you first become aware of gender equality as an issue?
JL: Hmm… that’s a good question! It’s difficult to really remember a time when I wasn’t aware of or fighting sexism! My mum and dad (who were 39 and 49 respectively when I was born) were extremely modern and progressive parents and raised me to be confident and independent and to believe in myself. I also had a much older brother so, growing up, I spent a great deal of time with him and his male friends and was just treated as one of the lads. I also attended a single sex school where we were encouraged to believe that we could achieve anything! (Looking back, it’s obvious that our headmistress and teachers were strong, liberated and talented women who were trying to teach us to be the same. At the time, of course, they seemed incredibly dreary and old fashioned!) So, I think I spent my early childhood in a little bubble where I laboured under the massive misapprehension that women are afforded the same respect, opportunities and place in society as men!
I’m not sure when I first realised just how different things are in the real world! I do remember a school friend and I arguing vehemently with a waiter in a café who’d overheard our conversation about the dearth of female chess champions and said, “Well, boys are cleverer than girls, aren’t they? Girls just can’t play chess”. I don’t think he anticipated being set upon in quite such a ferocious fashion and lectured in feminism so eloquently by a couple of school girls! I vividly remember calling him a ‘chauvinist’. I think I was about 12 at the time. So, certainly, even before I was a teenager, I was already aware of gender inequality issues… and had started challenging them!
By the time I got to university (when I was 18 in 1987) I was calling myself a feminist. I think moving away from my hometown, a small and provincial coastal village, and going to study in Sheffield, helped to politicise me and galvanise me as a bit of an activist. (Not just on matters of gender equality – I will always fight for what I believe to be right. At university, for example, I was heavily involved in the anti-apartheid campaign.) It does feel as though I have been fighting for gender equality and against sexism pretty much all my adult life. I’m 45 now so that’s been a very long time! Much has improved in that time but there is still a hell of a long way to go.
ES: You’re not wrong there! What do you consider to be the greatest gender inequalities still prevalent?
JL: I think they remain the obvious things which women’s liberation campaigners were protesting about 40 or 50 years ago; career opportunities, unequal pay, discrimination in the work place… There are still far too few women in parliament, in executive positions, in science and engineering, in medicine, in the military, in high profile roles in sport etc etc. Of course, we’re every bit as capable as the men occupying these roles – but women aren’t encouraged into such positions. Indeed, we are often actively discouraged from pursuing them! And, whilst it may be a cliché, women who do take on roles and careers traditionally considered ‘male’, usually have to work twice as hard to be considered half as good. We are still subject to an over-arching patriarchy which keeps us (or at least tries to keep us!) subjugated and ‘in our place’.
For me, the worst problem is with the overall view of women in today’s society. We’re still considered second class citizens by so many and treated as such. We are still thought of as not as clever, strong or important as men. And if we’re not young and (conventionally) beautiful, we’re practically invisible! I believe many men also have a sense of entitlement where women are concerned. For example, they think they have the right to stalk, ridicule and abuse women they don’t even know on social media or shout out comments appraising a woman’s physical appearance when in public.
A few months ago I was approached by a middle-aged man in a supermarket. (He had a pot belly, terrible dandruff, receding hairline, halitosis and teeth that would make Shane MacGowan look like an advert for orthodontics.) Beaming, he told me that I shouldn’t buy the cream cakes I was just putting into my trolley (they were actually for a friend’s birthday, not for me!) because, having such a pretty face, I could be “A proper cracker” if I lost some weight. I responded very politely but pointed out how rude, inappropriate and sexist his comments were and that I do not exist to please total strangers (or, indeed, anybody!) with my appearance. I asked him how many of the pudgy men in the store he’d approached with the same advice. He looked horrified. None of them, obviously! I then pointed out that he wasn’t really in a position to be casting aspersions about other people’s physicality and I asked if he’d ever considered joining a gym. He got really nasty and aggressive and started shouting, “I was only trying to pay you a compliment, you stupid, stuck-up bloody cow!”. Of course, the irony of his being so insulted by what I said to him was entirely lost on him. He really thought that he had the right to comment on my appearance (and ways to improve it) but was outraged when I did the same to him.
In addition to the sense of ‘ownership’ many men seem to have over women, there also seems to be an alarming rise in vehement, violent and blatant misogyny. It is, no doubt, a backlash against the rise of feminism and perpetrated by men who are feeling emasculated and / or threatened by the increasing rise in female power. Of course, the advent of social media has a lot to do with this. Social media has been brilliant in giving feminist activists and campaign groups a platform and means of communication, but is has also provided a forum for some of the most horrendous outpouring of abuse and hatred directed at women, especially those who campaign for equality and women’s rights. Feminist campaigners such as Caroline Criado-Perez and Jean Hatchet have been subject to the most violent threats and constant abuse, the former just for daring to suggest that women should be represented on bank notes! Even the hugely talented and accomplished academic, Mary Beard, has been horribly trolled on Twitter just because of her gender.
Look at the Ched Evans case – a convicted and unrepentant rapist is defended and lauded by his supporters while his victim receives so many threats of violence and so much abuse from total strangers that she has to change her name and be re-located. This case just highlights the problem of the rape culture endemic in our society; the crime is often trivialised and the victim frequently blamed. No other crime is subject to such appalling victim blaming. It just highlights the very different way men and women are viewed and treated by society.
ES: To what extent do you think women themselves are to blame for this situation? Are women their own worst enemies?
JL: Ah, that’s a difficult one! I do try not to judge or criticise other women for anything. But, I must admit, there are times when I see behaviour which makes that very hard! Too frequently we really do let ourselves (and each other) down very badly. But is that any wonder when you consider everything we have to deal with?!
To start with, the media puts massive pressure on women to look a certain way and conform to strictly laid down ideals of conventional beauty.Throughout our lives, we’re constantly taught that our value is in our physical appearance and our attractiveness to men. It begins in childhood; we compliment little boys by telling them they’re brave or strong or clever but we compliment little girls by telling them that they’re pretty. It is such a huge part of our society, we often don’t even realise that we are validating and participating in the beauty myth and affecting our own self-esteem and self-image.
We are constantly bombarded with images of youth and beauty, in advertising, in music videos, on the covers of newspapers and even in the publications which are intended for the female market. All women’s magazines are full of young, thin and (conventionally) beautiful models (with no body hair whatsoever!) dictating to us how we should look. Of course, the photographs used are photo-shopped and air-brushed beyond recognition and present us with an idealised and unattainable beauty we can never hope to replicate. Go into the vast majority of fashion stores (especially those aimed at the younger market) and you’ll find the mannequins are all ridiculously skinny with figures (sculpted in plastic!) that real women cannot hope to achieve. And when, as is inevitable, we cannot meet the standards of beauty and perfection required of us by the media, it causes huge issues of low self-esteem and negative body image which, in turn, can have very serious repercussions.
Furthermore, society also tries to pit women against each other. Far from being taught to support and empathise, we are taught to dislike and compete with each other. Of course, we’re far more easily controlled that way so making us rivals instead of allies benefits the patriarchy. Too often I see women in fierce competition with or disparaging other women. And too often I see women involved in activities which demean and denigrate us all.
As a feminist, one of my aims is to end the objectification, sexualisation and belittling of women in the media. And that would be so much easier to do if some women were not more than willing to be objectified, belittled and sexualised! It’s very depressing that so many women (especially young women) feel their only currency is their body and allow themselves to be exploited. Look on Instagram and you’ll find thousands of young women posting photos of themselves naked and posing lasciviously. These are not professional models who are being paid, but women who are so desperate for validation and male attention that they objectify themselves on the internet, offering peeks of their naked body to titivate total strangers (most of whom are going to be decidedly seedy and older than their own dads!) in the hope of a ‘like’ or a compliment. It’s too sad for words.
We are conditioned to be subservient ‘men pleasers’ and, even without realising it, we act on this conditioning throughout our daily lives. For example, instead of confronting the cat-callers and wolf-whistlers and the total strangers who think it is fine to comment, unsolicited, on a woman’s physicality, some women will gush with thanks. Why?? Is our self-esteem so low that when a random stranger tells us we have a nice arse we’ll be grateful?? We should be challenging (or at the very least ignoring) such demeaning and sexist behaviour, not validating and encouraging it! But it is so ingrained in our psyche that we must meet with male approval that it’s our default position in so many different circumstances.
Look around and you’ll see so many women (especially young women) dressing seductively, wearing next to nothing. Tiny skirts, revealing tops, hot pants and see-through leggings might be perfect for a nightclub or party but they have become everyday wear. It’s almost as if girls have to show as much flesh as possible and clothes have to be skin-tight. Their physical ‘attributes’ have to be on constant display. Of course, women are entitled to wear whatever they want; if they feel comfortable and happy, then great. No problem. But I don’t think they are. I think these overtly sexy and revealing clothes stem from our social conditioning to compete for male attention and the endless pressure put on us by the media to be ‘desirable’. We think our society is so liberated and modern and free. But I’m afraid that, where the objectification of women is concerned, we are not only regressing, but things are worse than they have ever been. And while women are willing to demean and objectify themselves, the more sexist and misogynistic behaviour will be encouraged in men.
Sadly, even worse than just accepting sexist and misogynistic attitudes, some women actively participate! Just as there are some wonderful feminist campaigners out there who are men (and I’m glad to know quite a few of those!), women can be terrible sexists. I’m afraid I see this all too often on Twitter. I frequently post tweets on matters relating to feminism and, consequently, am subjected to a fair amount of trolling. I quite often get tweets from women telling me that Page 3 is just a bit of fun and that I’m just jealous of the pretty models and that there is no such thing as sexism etc.. I’ve come to expect this sort of thing from the knuckle dragging neandertrolls who patrol the internet looking for feminists to bother, but from other women it’s utterly bewildering and very sad.
In recent weeks, of course, I’ve been posting tweets about Ched Evans, firstly expressing my disgust that SUFC were considering keeping him on the squad and then expressing my relief that he won’t be returning to the team. I have had a variety of abusive and aggressive responses from Evans’ supporters, many blaming and insulting his victim and trying to justify his behaviour. Sadly, some of those have actually been from women. I just cannot comprehend how one woman could excuse the rape of another with comments like “She’s the town bike”, “She was asking for it” or “She should think herself lucky someone like Ched gave her a second look”. I am dismayed and utterly baffled by women who can collaborate so willingly in the oppression and abuse of their own gender.
So, yes, sometimes we are our own worst enemy, but then we are taught and conditioned to behave that way and it is SO hard to swim against the tide.
ES: Hmm, you’ve given us a lot to think about there. Is having a Minister for Women counter-productive?
JL: If I remember rightly, the position of Minister for Women was created by Tony Blair when he first came to power and was sold to us as a means of prioritising women’s issues. Despite having some respect and regard for Harriet Harman, the first incumbent of the role, I feel that this position was little more than a way of paying lip service to those women demanding better representation from their own government. Of course, the post is now Minister for Women & Equality so has a much wider remit and, since the creation of the post, it has always been held by a minister sitting in cabinet by virtue of another office. I think both of those facts point to just how much of a ‘priority’ women’s issues really are to our government!
To me, it seems wrong that we should need a Minister for Women at all. We already have ministers who are supposed to represent the interests of women…. they’re called ministers! We are not some tiny minority group with esoteric interests; we are 50% of the population! Our elected MPs are already supposed to be representing us in parliament, not making it the responsibility of just one minister who has other priorities! Labelling something a ‘women’s issue’ and making it, therefore, the job of the Minister for Women, discharges responsibility from the rest of parliament. Rather than have a specific minister for women, I’d prefer to see the government as a whole acting in the interests of women and gender equality. I’d also like to see far more female MPs in the House of Commons; a 50:50 ratio would seem to be the obvious way to ensure women are properly represented!
ES: I couldn’t agree more, Jo. Do you feel there is no hope of equality?
JL: Oh, that would be a depressing thought, wouldn’t it?! No, I honestly don’t believe there is no hope. I am genuinely hopeful for the future. Obviously, there is so much still to do, but I think progress is being made and feminists (both male and female) are making their voices heard. Of course, you can’t control what people think – there will always be the ignorant idiots with sexist and misogynistic views. But legislation will be passed, changes will be made, people will be educated, attitudes will be improved and those holding sexist opinions will be in a tiny minority. I think gender equality is going to take a very long time, probably decades, and it won’t be easily won, but it will happen!
ES: Do you think a tolerance of porn plays a part in gender inequality?
To a large extent, yes, I do. I know some couples enjoy and use porn as part of a healthy and varied sex life but, for the most part, I think porn is primarily produced for and used by men. Consequently, it just panders to male fantasies and gives a very skewed view of sex and sexuality and gender roles.
We need to start joining the dots. We live in a society where sexual violence against women and young girls is rife, where rape is trivialised and its victims treated like criminals and where so many women suffer the most brutal attacks and even murder at the hands of their own husbands and partners. At the same time our society is saturated with pornography, often involving very young women, in which the sexualising of childlikeness (schoolgirl uniforms etc) is acceptable, where women are subservient objects rather than equal partners, and in which violence and the degrading of women is common.
Research recently presented to the government by Professor Kevin Browne (professor of forensic psychology at the University of Nottingham) found that young offenders are far more accepting of violence against women and girls if they have been exposed to sexually objectified images of women. To quote from the report, “The first step in accepting and perpetrating violence against women is to view women as dehumanized sex objects”.
Even more insidious than the ‘hard core’ porn which exists outside of the mainstream, however, is the porn which has become a normalised and accepted part of our everyday lives. Everywhere we look we see images of women being depicted as sex objects. It’s 2014 and yet it’s still deemed acceptable for pictures of half naked young girls posing provocatively to be published in a national (and so-called ‘family’) newspaper. The covers of magazines and tabloids frequently feature highly sexualised images of young women, as do billboards, TV adverts, CD covers, they’re even on t-shirts and in shop windows… I fear we’ve become desensitised to it, but such images are everywhere. This is hardly the way to teach young men to respect and value women as equals. It is hardly the way to teach young women to respect and value themselves.
All of the research shows that these highly sexualised images which are so prevalent have a devastating effect on our children. Innumerable studies and reports have proved they affect confidence, self-esteem, sexual development and future relationships. Professor Browne’s research finds that soft porn images in mainstream media are particularly harmful as they “Change values about what is acceptable in terms of how we view and treat women and girls”.
For those who want it, there is plenty of porn all over the internet. We really don’t need it in our faces on the High Street.
ES: And religion?
JL: Oh, this is a very delicate subject, isn’t it? Where religion is concerned, I do try to respect and be considerate of other people’s faith. However, it can’t be denied that religion is so frequently the cause of women being subjugated and controlled. In other parts of the world women are denied even the most basic human rights and kept virtual slaves under the guise of religious rules. They are denied education, any freedom of choice, their bodies are mutilated, they are the prisoners of their husbands and fathers and brothers… it is heartbreaking. Even in the UK, many women are controlled or even virtually imprisoned because of a so-called faith. In approximately 25% of the world’s countries (including the Republic of Ireland) women are denied rights over their own body and have no access to safe and legal abortion unless in the very extreme circumstance that the pregnancy endangers their life. Using religion as a reason, men even have control over a woman’s reproduction. Faith is too often an excuse for keeping women oppressed and stripped of their rights.
It must be remembered that in the case of all of the major world religions, the central texts were originally set down by men. And in the case of all major religions, these central texts have always been interpreted by MALE religious leaders. Inevitably, all scriptures have been distorted and falsely applied by men to oppress women. I think that for centuries religious teachings have been used as an excuse and as a tool to keep women in subordination (just as religion is used as an excuse for wars and conflicts which are really about politics and power and the seizing of land). It’s not the faith itself I blame, but those who twist and distort it for their own ends. I’m definitely no expert where theology is concerned but I think I’m right in saying that, actually, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the founders of other major religions all taught the proper and equitable treatment of ALL the children of God.
ES: To expand on your article about Conchita Wurst, don’t you think drag artists are just a bit of a laugh?
JL: I’m afraid I don’t think so, no. Many feminists, myself included, have issues with drag. And by ‘drag’ I do not simply mean male actors playing female characters – that’s an entirely different thing. (I used to love Hinge and Bracket; two beautifully constructed, well-observed and brilliantly performed female characters that just happened to be played by men.) I refer specifically to ‘drag’ ie the type of female impersonation which involves vulgar caricature and stereotyping. I find it inherently misogynistic and demeaning to women.
The overall implication of drag performance is that femininity and, therefore, women themselves are a valid subject for ridicule. Drag performers wear extremely heightened versions of stereotyped feminine dress – the huge wigs, exaggerated make-up, teetering heels and garish clothes – and they adopt hugely stereotyped feminine behaviours. We are invited to laugh at them because of this stereotyping. The inference, therefore, is not that stereotypes are funny, but that women are.
It feels as though drag performers are given free reign to insult women. They adopt hugely sexist and offensive language (bitch, ho, slut…) and depict women in wholly objectified and grotesque ways. Drag often seems to portray two basic and highly stereotyped versions of women; the overly glammed-up and nymphomaniac tart or the hideous, ugly frump. The former denigrates women for their sexuality; the latter for their lack of it. The drag performer, Divine, for example, played on nasty stereotypes of ‘trailer park trash’; his drag personas were ugly, obscene, foul-mouthed and repellent.
I know that its exponents try to defend drag performance with the argument that it doesn’t mock women, it mocks an exaggerated cartoon version of women. I don’t buy that. I remain unconvinced that turning women into monstrous caricatures to be ridiculed and laughed at is anything other than insulting and demeaning. (And I would point out here that Conchita Wurst sports a thick, black beard! Not the grotesque of Divine’s personas, certainly, but still with overtones of mockery and the monstrous.)
I’ve also heard the argument that drag performers caricature women because they love them! Hardly! It is naive to think that drag performers have any sort empathy with or support for women; far from being an homage, I find drag disdainful and contemptuous. It’s not laughing with women, it’s laughing at them; it derides and subordinates. I’m afraid I don’t find it funny at all.
ES: Now, if I said, ‘Jo for Prime Minister’…….what would you change about this country and its treatment of women?
JL: Well, that’s very flattering but I certainly don’t have the skills or experience for that job! (Not that lack of ability has prevented some previous incumbents from taking on the role!) The first thing I’d do is try to tackle the terrible problem of rape and violence against women. The statistics are horrifying; around 85,000 women in the UK are raped every year, a further 400,000 suffer sexual violence and one in five women will experience some form of sexual violence during their lives. Only around 15% of the women who suffer serious sexual assault will report it to the police. This is undoubtedly because they fear being blamed or not being believed and because of the horrific trauma the entire judicial process causes to them.
We need to address the way rape is viewed by society and dealt with by the legal system. My first job as PM would be to try and raise awareness and understanding of sexual violence and dispel all the myths surrounding it. I would also want to provide far better services and support to victims, to create an environment in which women affected by sexual violence feel safe and confident to report it and achieve justice.
Similarly, I would like to do something to tackle the horrendous problem of domestic violence against women. Again, the statistics are frightening. Incidents of domestic violence are reported to the police at the rate of one per minute and, on average, two women per week are murdered by their current or former partner. I’d introduce much tougher sentences for domestic and sexual violence and enforce counselling and rehabilitation programmes for those found guilty, keeping them closely monitored following their release from prison. I’d also try to tackle the problem at its root – by better educating boys and young men. I would also like to try and build upon the refuges, support and help available to sufferers of domestic and sexual violence. Perhaps, by getting these massive corporations to actually pay their taxes, we’d be able to fund a variety of programmes to help sexual and domestic violence victims and introduce schemes to educate and rehabilitate its perpetrators.
Next on the agenda, I would ban Page 3 with immediate effect! I know that wouldn’t make me a very popular PM – look at the backlash poor Clare Short faced after she tried to do the same thing – but I wouldn’t care! Bare boobs in mainstream newspapers?? Not on my watch! I’d also take every measure possible to rid our media of the horrendously sexist and objectifying way it represents women. I’d make it my mission to ensure that ALL women, whatever their age, shape, size, style or appearance, are represented, respected and valued. Now wouldn’t that be a refreshing change??
I’d also like to introduce programmes and support networks encouraging women into careers and roles where they are currently massively underrepresented, even if that means using the dreaded word ‘quotas’! I’d like to be able to offer better education and employment prospects to ALL women. It wouldn’t be an easy task, I know, but, with the right ministers and advisors, it would be possible. And, contrary to popular belief, feminists are not opposed to women being full-time homemakers and mothers if that is their choice. (I think being a mother is one of the most difficult and highly skilled jobs around! I couldn’t do it!) I’d like to see more support and respect for those women (and men!) who chose to raise a family and care for their children full-time.
Oh, one last thing… How come men’s razors are considered ‘essential items’ and, therefore, not subject to VAT but feminine hygiene products aren’t?? When I’m PM, there will be no VAT on tampons! Not the catchiest campaign slogan, I admit, but not a bad place to start improving the lot of women!
ES: I’m laughing, but I am shocked. I was totally unaware of, that, Jo, so thank you for bringing it to our attention. And if you ever decide to stand, you’ve got my vote! Thank you so much for sharing your views in such a brilliant interview.
